The Un-Official Proxomitron Forum

Hey "Guyz",
Thought You might find this interesting. I've used this program ever since I stumbled across it, . .. hehheheh. You'll like these "guyz", . . .but remember, . ."safe surfing".
When you use the gnuella network it's not really your ip addy that's important enough to be logged, . . .since most requests are usually routed through somebody else machine, . .however, . .hard-coded into your nic card is a MAC address and just like Ip is unique to that card. This proggie will change your MAC addy every time you restart your computer. It's very simple and you can make up your own host name list or use the default one that's included. Just remember, . . .be careful when you visit to download, . .you'll see why when you get there, . . ."smiles"
Just "Click Here"
Have a great and wonderful week-end,
"Jak"

Ps: I went ahead and uploaded the program just in case you might not want to visit our "friends" on the under-side of the Net.

If one is using a router, is it the router's MAC address which would be detected by Gnutella or the computer's MAC address? If you change your MAC address, wouldn't your Internet service provider fail to recognize you?

Hi "Siamesecat",
How have You been? It's good to hear from you.
I've used this proggie for several years with no problem whatsoever.
I think you are right about the mac addy of your router. I'm just wondering if there would a way to spoof the routers mac addy, . . .lol
The program doesn't install it's just an exe file with a couple of lists. It picks at "random" different actually mac addys based on the brand of nic adaptor that you have, or you can choose your own. However, looks more legit if you let it pick the addy.
Take care my good friend.
"JaK"

(Mar. 07, 2009 06:37 AM)JakBeNymble Wrote: [ -> ]Hi "Siamesecat",
How have You been? It's good to hear from you.
I've used this proggie for several years with no problem whatsoever.
I think you are right about the mac addy of your router. I'm just wondering if there would a way to spoof the routers mac addy, . . .lol
The program doesn't install it's just an exe file with a couple of lists. It picks at "random" different actually mac addys based on the brand of nic adaptor that you have, or you can choose your own. However, looks more legit if you let it pick the addy.
Take care my good friend.
"JaK"

Everyone should be behind a router.imo The actual physical MAC address can't be changed on a router afaik, but it can clone other MAC addresses. I use a cable modem and if I'm correct, they track me with their modem by my routers MAC address. changing it may cause problems. I don't think DSL and dial-up providers do the same; so it may work there. I certainly can't change my modems MAC address; and I'm sure I can be tracked through it.

So if behind a router and not using cable(IP); I would think you could use the software to change your computers MAC address, log in to the router and clone your new address. You would need to do it each time. imo any way.

I am on DSL, and they recognize me from the MAC address of my router. I had to tell them what that was. If I used some other MAC address (which I could set up with the router), I should think that I would have a problem with the Internet connection.

Hi "Guyz",
Yelp, . . .definitely not something that you'd want to mess with. I've got just regular DSL w.o./ a router, so it doesn't bother anything at my ISP. Glad you all posted the info. & feedback, before somebody started a'cussin' at me! Heheheheh
But the little Mac proggie can be rerun and the stopped from running at start up and everything goes back to normal. It kinda of reminds me of proxo. It scans lists and picks an entry at "random" and you can make your own host name list or just use the default. But one thing is, it only runs at start-up, makes the changes, and then closes out. It doesn't run in the background.
Just in case somebody might want to see how it's doing on there machine,
*(1). Pop up a dos box or command prompt and type in ipconfig /all and look at the host name and the Physical Addresss. *smiles

Take Care "Guyz", and have a great and wonderful week-end,
"JaK"

besafe;

You can alter your router's MAC on-the-fly, if you're into Telnet.

While that's manual, you could, conceivably, set up a script that runs your Telnet session (using an external file listing some oddball IP addresses), then set up TaskManager to run that script every so many minutes. You'd want your script to check to see that there are currently no open connections, or else replies to your requests might get "lost". Or you could just 'remember' to run the script yourself every so often, between page views.

....

Even better yet, you could get your hands on a router that uses an open source OS, such as the Linksys WRT units (most of them, as I understand it). Websites abound that have hacked code for these routers, and I'm sure there's a script already built that will randomly anonymize the router's MAC, as often as you specify.

As good a place to start as any other: http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


HTH



Oddysey

(Mar. 10, 2009 12:17 AM)Oddysey Wrote: [ -> ]besafe;

You can alter your router's MAC on-the-fly, if you're into Telnet.

While that's manual, you could, conceivably, set up a script that runs your Telnet session (using an external file listing some oddball IP addresses), then set up TaskManager to run that script every so many minutes. You'd want your script to check to see that there are currently no open connections, or else replies to your requests might get "lost". Or you could just 'remember' to run the script yourself every so often, between page views.

....

Even better yet, you could get your hands on a router that uses an open source OS, such as the Linksys WRT units (most of them, as I understand it). Websites abound that have hacked code for these routers, and I'm sure there's a script already built that will randomly anonymize the router's MAC, as often as you specify.

As good a place to start as any other: http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


HTH



Oddysey

You can't change the physical address of a router afaik; but you can spoof or clone addresses the way you speak I guess. I won't be doing it anytime soon. If you reboot the router it will revert back to it's permanent physical MAC address, so you would need to run the script again. I do have a Linksys WRT54G that I use, but don't bother changing to one of the other software for it. Even if I was to do that, and my IP didn't have a problem with it; would I still not be traced through the cable modem's MAC address?
Never used Telnet; but after reading a bit about it, it doesn't seem a very secure way of doing things.

besafe;

Last things first.....

Telnet comes to us down through the ages, from a dark pre-historic past when no one considered anything such as security. Unchanged since then, but there are offshoots that have indeed been upgraded for security purposes. Further, any security issues noted are those relating to intercepting communications between the two endpoints of a conversation. In this case, we're talking about communication/conversing between your computer and your router - a pretty short distance, I'm sure you'll agree, and one that presesnts damned little opportunity for eavesdropping by others. Putty is one such updated clone of Telnet, if your truly paranoid (home-use only), or if you're into text-only sessions with remote servers. If this isn't your bag, then sticking with Telnet is safe enough.... again, for home-use only.

Next, yes your router will reset its MAC every time you re-boot, but routers are meant to be left on 24x7, and not intended to need a re-booting every so often. If you have to do this more than once a year (outside of the occasional power outage ), then you've got other issues, vis-a-vis reliability.

However, my intent was to have the script run much more often than only once, just after a re-boot. The while idea is to present a different identifying mark to those servers that you visit repeatedly, in order to stay under on their radar. In that light, the script could be run manually, every so often, or it could be automated (the reason I pointed out the above website, they've got a proggie that acts like TaskManager), whatever turns your crank. More or less, if you have the same IP everytime, playing with your MAC may be enough to cloud the issue of who's doing what. And even if you present a different IP on each visit (such as would be the case when using TOR, or if you have a dynamic IP from your ISP), if the same MAC shows up in the server logs over time, then they'll still find you, eventually.

And finally, yes, the MAC is only a small part of the overall picture, in terms of identifying a user. The IP is the first layer of identification, and the MAC comes after that. If you look at some of the court case filings, you'll note that the MAFIAA's lackeys include this detail almost every time. It's one of the ways of being sure that a student on a campus network is really the culprit (or at least, his/her machine is the culprit). By itself, it's not much to go on, but if we can muddy the waters in any way possible, we should do so, making it as hard as we can for "them" to catch us doing what they think we shouldn't be doing. (Leaving all discussion of 'legality' aside, thank you. )

As a side note, most routers institute something called NAT, or Network Address Translation. This is where the router presents its own MAC to the innerwebs, instead of the the MAC assigned to one's computer. The router keeps track of who's who, and sorts out the various responses from the web to the proper 'puters. Wonderously, many high-end expensive switches don't do this - it would slow them down. That right there explains why more than 30 thousand students have been sued (or threatened with suit) by the MAFIAA, and less than a handful of other "scofflaws" have been singled out for attention. The MAC was what gave them away - the campus was one single IP, as far as the web was concerned.

FWIW: I'm on a static IP - it doesn't change, ever. For this reason, I play with my router's MAC every so often, particularly if I need to use a certain decentralized network.

HTH



Oddysey

Hey "Guyz",
"Odd",. . .you almost make me wanta go out and buy a router. *Smiles* Good information. Most of us on horse and buggy DSL in this area are stuck over behind the ISP's proxy, so we all pretty much have the same "addy". It's a disadvantage at time when there are a couple of us wanting to download at some "free" hosting acount, you know the one's with the "timers". lol! I have to keep checking back to see if their download has completed so I can get my 7th or 8th "chunk". So spoofing the Mac addy and host name comes into play at times.
Have a great and wonderful day,
"JaK"

I guess if you are on a large network, it could be beneficial to spoof your MAC address. But I would think that someone "good" could still find you. But for me it is rather pointless imo, as I will still be able to be traced by my ISP's modem that I go through. (if it even allows me to change my routers MAC with no problem) At this point it is not something I'm going to worry about.
Glad I don't have a slow connection.

(Mar. 11, 2009 09:18 PM)besafe Wrote: [ -> ]I guess if you are on a large network......

I couldn't think of a better way to describe the internet!

(Mar. 11, 2009 09:18 PM)besafe Wrote: [ -> ]But I would think that someone "good" could still find you.

Not nearly as easily as you might think. Yes, your ISP will be able to figure it out, eventually, but only with some time and effort.

(Mar. 11, 2009 09:18 PM)besafe Wrote: [ -> ]But for me it is rather pointless imo, as I will still be able to be traced by my ISP's modem that I go through. (if it even allows me to change my routers MAC with no problem)

Yes, they'll eventually deduce your ISP, but not quickly, if you do whatever you can to slow them down.

Even then, once "they" come up against a real ISP, then they'll have to "do the dance" with that entity. Most of the non-megalith ISP's won't just give you up at the drop of a hat - they know that so far, the courts have agreed that they aren't directly on the chopping block. Even if they balk at giving you up, thus making an accuser file a suit and get a subpoena, they're still not liable for the alleged actions of an accused user. And if there is one thing independent ISP's understand, it's that users pay the bills. Piss off just one of them, and watch the stampede for the exits. Oops, there goes the gravy train.


Interesting how these things develop, and seem to take on a life of their own, eh?



Oddysey

(Mar. 11, 2009 10:21 PM)Oddysey Wrote: [ -> ]

(Mar. 11, 2009 09:18 PM)besafe Wrote: [ -> ]I guess if you are on a large network......

I couldn't think of a better way to describe the internet!

(Mar. 11, 2009 09:18 PM)besafe Wrote: [ -> ]But I would think that someone "good" could still find you.

Not nearly as easily as you might think. Yes, your ISP will be able to figure it out, eventually, but only with some time and effort.

(Mar. 11, 2009 09:18 PM)besafe Wrote: [ -> ]But for me it is rather pointless imo, as I will still be able to be traced by my ISP's modem that I go through. (if it even allows me to change my routers MAC with no problem)

Yes, they'll eventually deduce your ISP, but not quickly, if you do whatever you can to slow them down.

Even then, once "they" come up against a real ISP, then they'll have to "do the dance" with that entity. Most of the non-megalith ISP's won't just give you up at the drop of a hat - they know that so far, the courts have agreed that they aren't directly on the chopping block. Even if they balk at giving you up, thus making an accuser file a suit and get a subpoena, they're still not liable for the alleged actions of an accused user. And if there is one thing independent ISP's understand, it's that users pay the bills. Piss off just one of them, and watch the stampede for the exits. Oops, there goes the gravy train.


Interesting how these things develop, and seem to take on a life of their own, eh?



Oddysey

This is exactly why I think the whole thing is rather pointless, other than if you are on a network, and having trouble downloading something. Your MAC address is ALWAYS presented to your ISP no matter whether it is a new one, a spoofed one or a cloned one; so you can always be traced where there is the means and determination. You have to give your credentials to your ISP any time you want to get on line via your own connection. You state how difficult it can be to try and trace you through your ISP. So why worry about your MAC address in the first place? The only way to be very difficult to trace that I can think of is to "war drive". I think keeping people out of your pc using levels of protection is the way to go. I'm really not going to worry about my MAC address. I like this thread by the way.

besafe;

Consider the following scenario.....

The MafIAA comes looking for whoever's at the IP address of such-and-such. They also have a MAC address to hand off to the ISP, supposedly making a positive ID a walk in the park. Your ISP looks at the log, and says "yep, we've got that one".

Now, neither of them knew, or bothered to look up, the fact that the same IP addy had also logged in at various times with not one but several different MAC addresses. So the MafIAA goes to court, with some alleged ammuntion in its grubby little paws.....

They first ask you to admit that you are the person being sued, to which you have to say yes...... or do you? Right then, you point out to the judge that you do indeed have that IP addy, but the MAC is wrong. You offer proof that your router has MAC so-and-so, not such-and-such, and all of a sudden, that oh-so-positive ID isn't - not any more. They'll accuse you of using some other equipment, at which point you politely point out that they never took steps to ensure that your MAC is the only MAC ever seen on that IP address. Ask them if they'd ever done that, by way of defensive motion, and it's all over but the shouting, for reasons too lengthy to go into here. (Nobody ever said the law was short and sweet!)

Now, IANAL, and this isn't legal advice, so don't blame me if that scenario doesn't play out exactly as described. But it's got potential, and I've seen instances where the "SODDI" defense was accepted by the court. (SODDI - some other dude did it.) This being the technological age, and thankfully pretty much past the "no knock, no warrant, door-busting" raids of yesteryear, there's not a lot they can do when they don't have an ironclad lock on the identity of whomever did the alleged crime. Yes, they'll still try to brazen it out, but from then on, it's all bluff. Any competent lawyer can get you out of that one, I'm quite confident.

Again, I Am Not A Lawyer, but I like to think like one. Here's a link to one of my favorite role models:

http://www.recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/


So, yes, rotating one's MAC, even on a home machine, can be an advantage. If, that is, one is intent on playing head games with a bunch of clowns who have neither the decency or the courtesy to lie down and die in peace. Hmmm, did I just express and opinion?


HTH





Oddysey

(Mar. 15, 2009 05:36 AM)Oddysey Wrote: [ -> ]The MafIAA comes looking for whoever's at the IP address of such-and-such. They also have a MAC address to hand off to the ISP, supposedly making a positive ID a walk in the park. Your ISP looks at the log, and says "yep, we've got that one".

How could the MafIAA have determined the MAC addr? I didn't think a remote person could determine a MAC addr by probing a customer's IP from the internet through ISP routers.

I know it's sent to the ISP during DHCP, but DHCP packets would not escape beyond the ISP routers. Other communication like ARP won't survive beyond the initial router subnet, they're inherently not routable.

My ISP can associate my IP with the MAC addr that they remember from DHCP. If I use a local router that does DHCP (and I do) then the ISP gets to see that router's MAC, and even the ISP can't determine the MAC of machines behind the router.

The MafIAA and all others would only have an IP and they'd have to go begging the ISP for my other information like MAC addr. In cases like you mention where masses of people are on the same switched network, the visibility of a MAC addr is still limited to within that network.

If someone had NetBios open for external probing or had a locally implanted trojan, then MAC addr, computer name, logon name, etc. could be disclosed. Short of that though the MAC addr should not be visible beyond the first router encountered.